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Coronavirus Outbreak - Page 3
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  1. #21
    Moderator mostlyclassics's Avatar
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    I went to the grocery store today. Not surprised about the absence of hand santitizer and lysol wipes, but its a little weird seeing barely any toilet paper on the shelves.
    Some doctors are saying that vodka is about as effective as hand sanitizer. It will chap your hands, though. CAUTION: do not use if your hands are violent drunks.

    We've stocked up on vodka. And, for extra protection, we bought a bottle of Everclear. Nothing can survive in Everclear.
    "Sorry for the delay, I got caught in traffic." Rodney Scott Berget, South Dakota, October 29, 2018 final words.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Frequent Poster schmutz's Avatar
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    I believe the vodka needs to be 120 proof or stronger to be effective as a sanitizer.

  3. #23
    Senior Member CnCP Legend CharlesMartel's Avatar
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    CORONAVIRUS: Five key questions answered

    In the Shadow of Your Wings
    1 A Prayer of David. Hear a just cause, O Lord; attend to my cry! Give ear to my prayer from lips free of deceit!

  4. #24
    Moderator mostlyclassics's Avatar
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    I believe the vodka needs to be 120 proof or stronger to be effective as a sanitizer.
    That's why I got the 190-proof Everclear. One part Everclear to 1 parts vodka is close enough to 120 proof. I would have bought more Everclear, except I got the booze emporium's last bottle.
    "Sorry for the delay, I got caught in traffic." Rodney Scott Berget, South Dakota, October 29, 2018 final words.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Frequent Poster Alfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep3 View Post
    All the more reason to ignore the fear mongers
    Fear mongers? You don't really seem to be aware of the seriousness of the situation. In Italy all intensive care beds are occupied. In many European countries we will likely be at that point within a week, if the numbers continue to develop.

    Full ICs is not just bad news for coronapatients, it also means if you just had a heart attack and you need critical life support (such as breathing assistance) there is not going to be capacity for you. Already doctors throughout countries in Europe are discussing an age limit for those that can be hospitalized. In the Netherlands it was suggested this week to no longer take in any patients above 80 years of age, and instead focus on the younger ones. That's pretty harsh if you're 80 and paid health insurance all your life.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Frequent Poster NanduDas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostlyclassics View Post
    Some doctors are saying that vodka is about as effective as hand sanitizer. It will chap your hands, though. CAUTION: do not use if your hands are violent drunks.

    We've stocked up on vodka. And, for extra protection, we bought a bottle of Everclear. Nothing can survive in Everclear.
    PSA: washing your hands with soap is much more effective at removing germs than hand sanitizer. If you can, do that instead.

    As for the original post, things are starting to get a bit tense here on the West Coast. Lots of people are being told to work from home, some usually packed businesses are looking very empty.
    "The pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer." -Theodore Roosevelt

  7. #27
    Administrator Helen's Avatar
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    Italy's cases jumped 2,319 on Wednesday for a total of 12,462. Out of this 827 people have died.

    That's about 6.6% mortality rate.
    "I realize this may sound harsh, but as a father and former lawman, I really don't care if it's by lethal injection, by the electric chair, firing squad, hanging, the guillotine or being fed to the lions."
    - Oklahoma Rep. Mike Christian

    "There are some people who just do not deserve to live,"
    - Rev. Richard Hawke

    "Men have called me mad; but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence"
    - Edgar Allan Poe

  8. #28
    Senior Member Frequent Poster Shep3's Avatar
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    Have to take into account the ages of those confirmed infected and the fact European nations have a tendency to have larger elderly populations. Also Italy is a boon area for tourists and migrants so it’s likely many of the people are not native Italians.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Member Mastro Titta's Avatar
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    The village in Tuscany I live in had 11 new cases just today. From zero to 11 in one day.

  10. #30
    Administrator Helen's Avatar
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    The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors

    There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care

    By Yascha Mounk
    The Atlantic

    Two weeks ago, Italy had 322 confirmed cases of the coronavirus. At that point, doctors in the countrys hospitals could lavish significant attention on each stricken patient.

    One week ago, Italy had 2,502 cases of the virus, which causes the disease known as COVID-19. At that point, doctors in the countrys hospitals could still perform the most lifesaving functions by artificially ventilating patients who experienced acute breathing difficulties.

    Today, Italy has 10,149 cases of the coronavirus. There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care. Doctors and nurses are unable to tend to everybody. They lack machines to ventilate all those gasping for air.

    Now the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care (SIAARTI) has published guidelines for the criteria that doctors and nurses should follow in these extraordinary circumstances. The document begins by likening the moral choices facing Italian doctors to the forms of wartime triage that are required in the field of catastrophe medicine. Instead of providing intensive care to all patients who need it, its authors suggest, it is becoming necessary to follow the most widely shared criteria regarding distributive justice and the appropriate allocation of limited health resources.

    The principle they settle upon is utilitarian. Informed by the principle of maximizing benefits for the largest number, they suggest that the allocation criteria need to guarantee that those patients with the highest chance of therapeutic success will retain access to intensive care.

    The authors, who are medical doctors, then deduce a set of concrete recommendations for how to manage these impossible choices, including this: It may become necessary to establish an age limit for access to intensive care.

    Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of life-years left even if they should survive, will be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of first come, first served would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.

    In addition to age, doctors and nurses are also told to take a patients overall state of health into account: The presence of comorbidities needs to be carefully evaluated. This is in part because early studies of the virus seem to suggest that patients with serious preexisting health conditions are significantly more likely to die. But it is also because patients in a worse state of overall health could require a greater share of scarce resources to survive:

    What might be a relatively short treatment course in healthier people could be longer and more resource-consuming in the case of older or more fragile patients.

    These guidelines apply even to patients who require intensive care for reasons other than the coronavirus, because they too make demands on the same scarce medical resources. As the document clarifies, These criteria apply to all patients in intensive care, not just those infected with CoVid-19.

    My academic training is in political and moral philosophy. I have spent countless hours in fancy seminar rooms discussing abstract moral dilemmas like the so-called trolley problem. If a train is barreling toward five innocent people who are tied to the tracks, and I could divert it by pulling the lever, but at the cost of killing an innocent bystander, should I do it?

    Part of the point of all those discussions was, supposedly, to help professionals make difficult moral choices in real-world circumstances. If you are an overworked nurse battling a novel disease under the most desperate circumstances, and you simply cannot treat everyone, however hard you try, whose life should you save?

    Despite those years of theory, I must admit that I have no moral judgment to make about the extraordinary document published by those brave Italian doctors. I have not the first clue whether they are recommending the right or the wrong thing.

    But if Italy is in an impossible position, the obligation facing the United States is very clear: To arrest the crisis before the impossible becomes necessary.

    This means that our political leaders, the heads of business and private associations, and every one of us need to work together to accomplish two things: Radically expand the capacity of the countrys intensive-care units. And start engaging in extreme forms of social distancing.

    Cancel Everything. Now.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...al-bed/607807/
    "I realize this may sound harsh, but as a father and former lawman, I really don't care if it's by lethal injection, by the electric chair, firing squad, hanging, the guillotine or being fed to the lions."
    - Oklahoma Rep. Mike Christian

    "There are some people who just do not deserve to live,"
    - Rev. Richard Hawke

    "Men have called me mad; but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence"
    - Edgar Allan Poe

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