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Colorado Capital Punishment News - Page 9
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  1. #81
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    (1) Mike, what you say is factually true, but that doesnt contradict what I said previously in my two earlier posts. The purpose of a popular vote on the death penalty is not only to have immediate executions in the state where the vote takes place.

    (2) To joe_con and Thakker, I agree that people don't vote mainly on the death penalty in elections, but:

    (a) Like any topic it can sometimes --- at least unconsciously --- turn the scale.

    (b) That is precisely why initiatives and referendums are needed, because it is the only instance where ordinary citizens can vote on a single issue.

    That is overall why initiatives and referendums are more democratic than elections: the people make their choices topic by topic. They are not forced to vote for or against an entire electoral platform.

    (3) I agree that in a number of states, ballot measures are legally possible and would succeed.

    I reiterate that the main challenge is funding. Almost all ordinary citizens have never donated to any ballot measure for any topic. But that has never stopped ballot propositions from winning, including those for the death penalty. Remember the three ballot measures in November 2016.

    Experience teaches us that the best donors for this are police and correctional unions, individual correctional officers giving small amounts, and wealthy conservative donors (including maybe Donald Trump and his family, since out-of-state funding are usually allowed).

    https://pacificsun.com/capital-intensive/

    https://www.omaha.com/news/state_and...cdc3ebb25.html

    (4) About Colorado specifically, the legislature might well have passed the bill now to avoid a ballot measure in 2020. But it is not indispensable that it happens in 2020. It can be latter. The goal is not to preserve the few and indefinitely stayed death sentences, assuming that the governor will not commute them.

    Indeed, an initiated statute, compared to a referendum, would have the advantage not only to reinstate the death penalty (it is better that we can say that the death penalty was not merely retained, but reinstated), but also to add various changes to the statutes making obstructionism harder, as California Proposition 66 did in 2016.

    Since in Colorado the number of signatures required is the same for both, there would be no advantage to try a referendum rather than an initiated statute.
    Last edited by Steven AB; 03-26-2020 at 12:10 PM.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Frequent Poster joe_con's Avatar
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    Voter propositions will work in Republican states like Nebraska, but not in Democratic states like California or Colorado. The will of Democratic voters will keep seeing Death Penalty opponents elected to office whether those voters are pro DP or not. Also a lot of Democratic voters oppose the death penalty for the most part. The Dem voters that are pro DP rate it very low on their list of priorities.

  3. #83
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    Voter propositions for the death penalty in the Democratic California actually have qualified for the ballot multiple times and have always won, the last one in 2016.

    I reiterate that one of their purposes is precisely to override elected officials, and also to legitimate the death penalty nationally.

    In all states, even the so-called Democratic ones, independent voters are decisive for elections results. The death penalty, and also the issue of respecting ballot results, can have an effect (possibly unconscious) on voters from all political tendencies, who support the death penalty or popular sovereignty, or both.

    And there are not only so-called Democratic states at stake. There are also swing/purple states.

    As Neil123 said, the path for reinstating the death penalty by popular vote in several states is not at all closed. I can only invite the reader to look at the best strategy to win them in my earlier post from today.
    Last edited by Steven AB; 03-05-2020 at 02:40 PM.

  4. #84
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    The reason why a lot of us are getting feisty is because elected officials have failed to execute people despite our support of it they care more about the criminal which is down right immoral. The death penalty for me is the number one conservative social issue I care about.

    Steven AB, Trump has been an ardent supporter of Capital punishment. I believe he was one of 5 republican candidate’s in 2016 to support it vehemently. He blasted Newsom when he halted the death penalty. He has pushed the DOJ to seek the death penalty in more cases. He found the drugs needed to carry out federal executions. He can hollow out federal death row if he’s re-elected. To Mike’s point, you need politicians with a backbone to carry out executions. I truly believe Sununu would’ve had the first execution in New Hampshire in the modern era. He supported it vehemently. The legislature wasn’t there to back him up. Rinos there overrode his veto. If he had a Trump like legislature, they could’ve found a way to execute their death row inmate. Mike was right when he said the coattails won’t do anything. The ones that voted to override him can’t be in office. They’d never support a ballot initiative to enshrine it to the state constitution. They have to be in the mold of Rick Perry to support a ballot initiative there.

  5. #85
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    Let me articulate it this way. Voters can vote in support of the death penalty all they want and they will continue to do so. When those same voters elect politicians that do not support the death penalty then no one will get executed. California has not executed anyone since 2006. Voters continue to vote to support capital punishment in that state, and no one has been executed. Voters might vote to keep capital punishment on a ballot, but realistically as a social issue it does not galvanize people the way abortion does, homosexuality does, gun rights does, or immigration does. It is like voting for new taxes or voting down new taxes, if the legislature votes in the new tax anyway or votes down the new tax most voters will shrug their shoulders and accept it.

    In reality the DP is a thing of the past in Democrat controlled states, whether 55% or so of the voters support it or not. I would not be surprised to see Virginia abolish it soon and unlike the attack on the 2nd amendment that galvanized opposition, an attack on the death penalty will not have that same reaction.

  6. #86
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    It's one thing for voters to vote to keep capital punishment in the books but it's another for them to actually elect people that want to make it work. The fact is the legislative and executive branch officials in states like California don't want it to work, they want it to starve to death essentially.

    Whether it's the legislature never appropriating money for defense attorneys beyond what they're required to do or the AG dragging their feet in lethal injection lawsuits. Not to mention the moratorium. A law has to be enforced/maintained to work.

    Being tough on crime isn't the hot button issue it was in the 1990s anymore.

  7. #87
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    What did that gun rights rally do? The only thing it did was kill off the assault weapons ban for this year. All the other gun control bills passed this year. Yeah the other gun control bills were watered down, but irregardless the Democratic controlled legislature got what they wanted for the most part. Plus, let me say this the ones who voted to stop that assault weapons ban bill are old school 90s democrats. Abolition of capital punishment wasn’t even given a hearing in Virginia this year. Plus let me also say this, you put a ballot drive to expand background checks or a red flag law in Virginia versus keeping the death penalty. The death penalty will come out on top. Abortion rights were expanded this year there. Essentially, they erased everything Bob McDonnell signed into law. Bob McDonnell as we all know was the last republican elected in Virginia. He was a true conservative. The gun rights rally didn’t do anything there. The Democratic controlled legislature got what they wanted. They will come back next year with more gun laws.
    Last edited by Neil123; 02-27-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  8. #88
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    Cosplaying Fudds and boomers will never sway gun grabbers or death penalty abolitionists and their masters in the ivory tower.
    "You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook." - Harry Truman

  9. #89
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    Your right Aaron they won’t. The very liberal progressive house in Virginia said gun control was their main priority. They passed those bills even though that the rally ensued. The senate in Virginia just watered them down to a degree.
    Last edited by Neil123; 02-27-2020 at 10:58 AM.

  10. #90
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    Thakker, joe_con, and johncocacola are contending that we need elected officials: (1) to qualify voter measures to the ballot and (2) to enforce them. They are merely ignoring what I said previously.

    The (1) is factually false since Proposition 66 in California passed in 2016 while California elected officials were already death penalty opponents. I have indicated yesterday how initiatives can qualify for the ballot and win, with relevant press articles about the funding strategy.

    The (2) is true, but my main answer is that to legitimate the death penalty nationally, better having states with an unenforced death penalty enacted by the people than no death penalty at all. States where executions are actually happening and the federal government are benefiting from that, politically to apply the death penalty, and legally to keep the death penalty consistent with societys "standards of decency".

    And my secondary answer to (2) is that elected officials were also very obstructionist with the death penalty from 1965 to 1990 and we know what happened thereafter. If you say that will not re-happen, that statement will have no more credence than a 1967 or 1972 statement that the death penalty is dying, or a pre-November 2016 statement that a Donald Trump Presidency will never exist. Many unpredictable events can cause the rise of the death penalty: rise of crime rates caused by so-called criminal justice "reform", terrorist attacks, mass shootings, Trump landslide, etc.
    Last edited by Steven AB; 02-28-2020 at 12:37 PM.

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