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Thread: Actual Innocence After Execution

  1. #151
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    If one percent are innocent it works out to 13 executed and 31 on death row. One of the good things about capital cases is they get extra scrutiny. I doubt there have been 13 innocents executed. How many innocent are serving life or 99 yrs for lack of the kind of extra scrutiny a DP case gets is another question.

  2. #152
    Senior Member CnCP Addict Richard86's Avatar
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    You'd be assuming that an innocent person has the same chance of getting to the gurney as a guilty person has following a death sentence. It's not possible to measure the odds, but it's probably less likely if the appeals process works.

    None of this is possible to measure accurately, that's the problem It's why I don't like things like the Death Penalty "Information" Centre doing studies on this sort of thing and making their reports look objective and methodical when actually they're entirely political.

  3. #153
    Member Member SoonerSaint's Avatar
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    This is an interesting formula you present Richard. It is a difficult equation, because we have to factor the number of executed versus exonerated, or the number of exonerated versus the number on death row. I think if we factor exonerated versus executed, it is about 145 or so versus around 1390, which would be more than 10%. If we do exonerated versus sentenced, the percentile drastically drops to 145 to almost 3,100, which is less than 2%. If we use the "vs. executed" formula, I think we could agree that there are probably more innocent on death row than we would be comfortable with. If we use the "vs. sentenced" formula, then we can probably agree that it is an unproven hypothesis. I am of the personal belief that one innocent executed does not serve the greater good.

    In response to your reply to my previous post, Colorado currently has 4 people on death row, and has not executed anyone sine Gary Davis in 1997. I do enjoy healthy debate on this subject.

    I feel that there are important questions we need to ask ourselves on the issue. Please keep in mind that I am pro capital punishment.

    Is it a deterrent?
    Is the statute applied equally?
    Has an innocent person been executed in the United States?

    I believe the answers are no, no, and yes. I am all for it as long as we absolutely get it right.
    "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them".--Alfred Adler

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    This is an interesting formula you present Richard. It is a difficult equation, because we have to factor the number of executed versus exonerated, or the number of exonerated versus the number on death row. I think if we factor exonerated versus executed, it is about 145 or so versus around 1390, which would be more than 10%. If we do exonerated versus sentenced, the percentile drastically drops to 145 to almost 3,100, which is less than 2%. If we use the "vs. executed" formula, I think we could agree that there are probably more innocent on death row than we would be comfortable with. If we use the "vs. sentenced" formula, then we can probably agree that it is an unproven hypothesis. I am of the personal belief that one innocent executed does not serve the greater good.
    The problem is that if someone is on death row and confirmed innocent by the most reliable method (the appeals process) then they are no longer on death row. There's no way of confirming that someone is innocent without removing them from death row, making it impossible to reliably measure the number of people who are on death row who are innocent.

    There might well be some, there might be lots, or there might be none, I can't objectively tell you.

    On the number of exonerations, I see you've used the DPIC list. Unfortunately, none of the otherwise objective criteria used to compile that list indicate actual innocence rather than exonerations due to legal technicalities or legal insufficiency, so the use of exonerations is merely a proxy for innocence. Infact, the cases on the DPIC list have been criticised.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    In response to your reply to my previous post, Colorado currently has 4 people on death row, and has not executed anyone sine Gary Davis in 1997. I do enjoy healthy debate on this subject.
    3: Nathan Dunlap, Sir Mario Owens and Robert Ray. I imagine James Holmes will be joining them in a couple of years. Sir Mario Owens and Robert Ray are particularly good examples of the need for the death penalty. People who are willing to commit murder to stop witnesses testifying at murder trials have absolutely forfeited their right to life. Clarence Ray Allen in California even more so, since his crimes showed that only by being dead could society be safe from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    Is it a deterrent?
    Only to rational people, which is not most criminals.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    Is the statute applied equally?
    Hence why the sentence is disproportionate to the crime avenue of appeal should be available.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    Has an innocent person been executed in the United States?
    I've yet to see a convincing example of one. The only one I can think of that comes close is Willingham.

  5. #155
    Member Member SoonerSaint's Avatar
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    I am not so adept in this forum to make my reply look as neat as yours, but I will try to respond in sequence. I agree with most of your first response, but I didn't use any DPIC list of exonerations. This is just the number of people exonerated from death row for whatever reason. I would be interested to see how many of them were exonerated through the actual appeals process. My guess is that number would be small. The limited number of these people I have looked at indicate that their release was contingent on the possibility of a new trial based on DNA evidence. Again, I focus mostly on Texas, where courts cannot make a mistake, so I can't claim any certainty on percentages and circumstances. I was simply offering two scenarios...exonerated vs actual executed, or exonerated vs sentenced. I thought it might be an interesting exercise.

    Colorado: James Holmes certainly needs to join the rest soon.

    Skipping my first two criteria, no argument there, just posing the element. I think Willingham is much less compelling than it has been made out to be. He was bitter at his ex wife, and it is certainly a sordid tale, but look at two more. Johnny Frank Garrett and Carlos DeLuna. Again, we have to use "innocent" in context only as it pertains to the crime for which they were executed. Neither was innocent as the driven snow, but I believe neither were guilty of the crime for which they were executed. Troy Davis falls in here also. I doubt he was a good guy...all of us would seem tame after a lifetime on death row, but did he kill the officer, or was it Sylvester Coles?

    Thanks for indulging me Richard. If you wish to coach me on how to make my posts as clean as yours, I am all ears.
    "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them".--Alfred Adler

  6. #156
    Senior Member CnCP Addict Richard86's Avatar
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    This really needs to be moved to a different thread, maybe actual innocence after execution, admin?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    I am not so adept in this forum to make my reply look as neat as yours, but I will try to respond in sequence. I agree with most of your first response, but I didn't use any DPIC list of exonerations. This is just the number of people exonerated from death row for whatever reason. I would be interested to see how many of them were exonerated through the actual appeals process. My guess is that number would be small. The limited number of these people I have looked at indicate that their release was contingent on the possibility of a new trial based on DNA evidence. Again, I focus mostly on Texas, where courts cannot make a mistake, so I can't claim any certainty on percentages and circumstances. I was simply offering two scenarios...exonerated vs actual executed, or exonerated vs sentenced. I thought it might be an interesting exercise.
    Although you didn't cite it directly, the 145 figure comes originally from the DPIC and if frequently used (uncited) as the definitive figure for exonerations by other sources. Although it's objectively defined (released following a pardon, the prosecution declines to re-trial, or following acquittal) it only covers legal, rather than actual innocence. There has been one former member of the list (Timothy Hennis) who's since been retried, found guilty and sentenced to death for the crime he was originally on death row for. It also excludes people who accept plea bargains for other offences in order to have capital charges dropped, I can't think of any specific examples, but there's nothing to stop any of those being actually innocent!

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    Skipping my first two criteria, no argument there, just posing the element. I think Willingham is much less compelling than it has been made out to be. He was bitter at his ex wife, and it is certainly a sordid tale,
    I'd agree, I think he was guilty, the confession that Kuykendall reported years after his execution probably did happen. I think he was trying to get her forgiveness in a last desperate attempt to stay alive and she kept it to herself to preserve his dignity and that of his family. That is until media interest in his case picked up. The transcripts from the original trial show that the arson findings since challenged are a small part of the case against him, and Baylor and Hurst never excluded the possibility of arson. I'd only give his case as a possible because if the same evidence could be created in an accidental fire it would make his conviction unsafe, in the absence of witnesses to his starting the fire, all the other evidence would say nothing more than coward.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    but look at two more. Johnny Frank Garrett and Carlos DeLuna. Again, we have to use "innocent" in context only as it pertains to the crime for which they were executed. Neither was innocent as the driven snow, but I believe neither were guilty of the crime for which they were executed.
    I like how you name specific cases, lots of people make the claim that innocent people have been executed but won't name a specific case, it's more usually along the lines of there must have been because there have been so many executions.

    I'm doubtful of DeLuna's innocence though, while he was alive he never identified the supposed real killer he spent the evening with claiming to be afraid of him, and TDCJ records show he was never in prison at the same time as the suspected Carlos Hernandez who's been claimed to be the real killer, making his story about meeting him in prison unlikely. Plus it's too convenient, the real murderer being a lookalike sounds like the sort of thing you'd say if you were trying to put doubt on the witness statements. And the report exonerating him was an undergraduate project, not a thoroughly examined piece.

    I'm not so familiar with the Garrett case other than it's controversial, but I think I've read that he confessed. His is certainly a better claim to an innocent person executed that some of the more well known cases though (Joseph O'Dell or Gary Graham spring to mind!)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    Troy Davis falls in here also. I doubt he was a good guy...all of us would seem tame after a lifetime on death row, but did he kill the officer, or was it Sylvester Coles?
    It was without doubt Davis, as the court found (an extraordinary hearing ordered for this case) the evidence for his innocence was smoke and mirrors. Of the 9 witnesses who recanted most of them were not credible or not recantations, and these recantations did not represent the bulk of the witnesses against Davis. There were other witnesses who always maintained it was the white shirt wearing Davis who shot McPhail (who incidentally identified Davis before he was shot). Plus had the police obtained a search warrant correctly they'd have been able to present as evidence Davis's white shirt, stained with McPhail's blood, instead it was suppressed as being obtained unconstitutionally.

  7. #157
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    Here is California Deputy Attorney General Ward Campbell's 2008 take on exoneration inflation:

    http://www.cjlf.org/files/CampbellEx...lation2008.pdf

  8. #158
    http://www.alabamainjustice.com/wp-c...Morgenthau.pdf

    regarding William Kuenzel Robert Morgenthau states "this man is factually innocent and his trial was unconstitutional"

    http://www.justiceforbillykuenzel.com/index.html

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...78738772154288

    This is actual innocence before execution. If y'all are for justice, real justice visit the websites listed and get mad about this good man the state would rather murder than admit wrongdoing or pay for a new trial they know they cannot win now that Billy has the best attorneys in the nation.
    my billy.jpg
    about-1-articleLarge.jpg

  9. #159
    Member Newbie iamjumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruffec View Post
    Your blind faith in the legal system astounds me..innocent people are regularly convicted because the legal system is run by human beings & human beings make mistakes..to think otherwise is simply nieve & plain foolish !
    no one has ever said that there are not mistakes, but, normal people who are intelligent and rational, know that the simple fact that twenty plus have been exonorated from death row is conclusive PROOF that NO innocent could ever be executed

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    This is an interesting formula you present Richard. It is a difficult equation, because we have to factor the number of executed versus exonerated, or the number of exonerated versus the number on death row. I think if we factor exonerated versus executed, it is about 145 or so versus around 1390, which would be more than 10%. If we do exonerated versus sentenced, the percentile drastically drops to 145 to almost 3,100, which is less than 2%. If we use the "vs. executed" formula, I think we could agree that there are probably more innocent on death row than we would be comfortable with. If we use the "vs. sentenced" formula, then we can probably agree that it is an unproven hypothesis. I am of the personal belief that one innocent executed does not serve the greater good.

    In response to your reply to my previous post, Colorado currently has 4 people on death row, and has not executed anyone sine Gary Davis in 1997. I do enjoy healthy debate on this subject.

    I feel that there are important questions we need to ask ourselves on the issue. Please keep in mind that I am pro capital punishment.

    Is it a deterrent?
    Is the statute applied equally?
    Has an innocent person been executed in the United States?

    I believe the answers are no, no, and yes. I am all for it as long as we absolutely get it right.
    of course, the FACTUAL answers to your questions are, no,yes, no.

    the deterrence argument is prima facie, stupid. it has NO relevance to the subject whatsoever. execution DOES deter the executed murderer from ever killing again, and that is the ONLY deterrence that matters.

    the fact that less than a third of those executed in the u.s. since 1976 have been black, blows your second answer out of the water.

    again, the irrefutable FACT that there has not been a single factually innocent individual executed in the u.s. since 1976, makes your third answer wrong

    NO ONE wants an innocent person executed. that means that there is a murderer running loose

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerSaint View Post
    I am not so adept in this forum to make my reply look as neat as yours, but I will try to respond in sequence. I agree with most of your first response, but I didn't use any DPIC list of exonerations. This is just the number of people exonerated from death row for whatever reason. I would be interested to see how many of them were exonerated through the actual appeals process. My guess is that number would be small. The limited number of these people I have looked at indicate that their release was contingent on the possibility of a new trial based on DNA evidence. Again, I focus mostly on Texas, where courts cannot make a mistake, so I can't claim any certainty on percentages and circumstances. I was simply offering two scenarios...exonerated vs actual executed, or exonerated vs sentenced. I thought it might be an interesting exercise.

    Colorado: James Holmes certainly needs to join the rest soon.

    Skipping my first two criteria, no argument there, just posing the element. I think Willingham is much less compelling than it has been made out to be. He was bitter at his ex wife, and it is certainly a sordid tale, but look at two more. Johnny Frank Garrett and Carlos DeLuna. Again, we have to use "innocent" in context only as it pertains to the crime for which they were executed. Neither was innocent as the driven snow, but I believe neither were guilty of the crime for which they were executed. Troy Davis falls in here also. I doubt he was a good guy...all of us would seem tame after a lifetime on death row, but did he kill the officer, or was it Sylvester Coles?

    Thanks for indulging me Richard. If you wish to coach me on how to make my posts as clean as yours, I am all ears.
    the fact that davis had just shot a chap in the face that afternoon, with the gun that was used to kill the officer later that night, pretty well answers your question. however, whether or not he actually pulled the trigger has absolutely NO relevance anyway. he was a party to the murder, therefore a murderer, and deserved to be executed.
    so, his actual role is moot to begin with
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamjumbo View Post
    no one has ever said that there are not mistakes, but, normal people who are intelligent and rational, know that the simple fact that twenty plus have been exonorated from death row is conclusive PROOF that NO innocent could ever be executed
    No, it's not conclusive proof that it could not happen. You cannot prove that events in systems which involve variability (such as the death penalty system) cannot happen.

    It is however evidence that it is unlikely to happen, since unless someone can find 20+ cases where an innocent person definitely was executed it would indicate that the chances of being exonerated are higher than being executed if one is innocent, and even then you'd have to factor in the odds of being convicted in the first place if one is innocent.

    In this case the likelihood of such an event happening is so marginal that for it to happen it would probably require pandemic corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamjumbo View Post
    the fact that davis had just shot a chap in the face that afternoon, with the gun that was used to kill the officer later that night, pretty well answers your question. however, whether or not he actually pulled the trigger has absolutely NO relevance anyway. he was a party to the murder, therefore a murderer, and deserved to be executed.
    so, his actual role is moot to begin with
    Indeed, and his last words were his claim that he did not personally kill McPhail, so even he admitted to being a party, and not a distant party either.

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